What COVID-19 Means for Students and Educators w/ Justin Nguyen of GetChoGrindUp

Justin Nguyen, founder of GetChoGrindUp, and I discuss the implications of COVID-19 on students and educators across the world. We dive deep into what students should do during this time and how educators should likely adapt to help improve job training in the coming months, including starting online trade schools powered by Income Share Agreements. Music: R.O.A.S.N by Gil Wanders.

NOTE: The following is an AI-powered transcription of Justin and I's conversation. It likely contains many errors:

GetChoGrindUp (Justin Nguyen) Interview
Ish-track: [00:00:00] What's up everybody? My name is Ish and I am the founder of virtually, and this is the virtually podcast where we discuss everything online education, including higher ed, online trade schools, bootcamps, ISA, , and so much more. 
[00:00:14]This week's conversation is with Justin Nguyen of GetChoGrindUp. We talk about COVID-19 and its effect on teachers, students, and higher ed. Justin gives some great advice on what you should do if you're a student during this crisis. I hope you enjoy.
[00:00:31]Ish: [00:00:31] Hi, everyone. Uh, my name is Ish the founder and CEO of virtually, and today I'm joined by Justin Nguyen of GetChoGrindUp justin, do you want to introduce yourself.
[00:00:41] Justin: [00:00:41] Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me on. So my name is Justin N. I'm the CEO of GetChoGrindUp. And basically our goal I get your grind up is really to share to Chicos to college and we can dive a little bit more about in into that. Cause I know the whole topic of today is going to be about higher ed and everything like that.
[00:00:56] So really looking forward to that. But I guess the other side of thing that I do is lead to consulting as I've built up a huge following on that platform where I'm getting like 200,000 views every single month off of student. Uh, content, basically. So that's sort of what's fueled ghetto grind up and it's, it's been crazy to just to see the reactions of other people around the world, um, when it comes to student voices and everything like that.
[00:01:18] Ish: [00:01:18] awesome. And I definitely want to talk about get your grind up, and I think it's going to have a huge role to play in terms of like. What is the world going to look like after this and for context right now, as we're recording this, it is in the midst of the covert 19 epidemic. And to start us off, the first thing I wanted to go through was a quick timeline.
[00:01:38] Of everything that's kind of happened with COBIT, where we are now, and the implications specifically for education. I know Justin, you're in, you're in the field of education. Myself and my company, we're also in the field of education, so this has a huge kind of impact on our industries, and so I kind of want to discuss those implications, but real quick, let me let, let's start off with the timeline and kind of everything that's happened so far.
[00:02:01] So I was doing some research and New York times has this incredible article where it just goes through. The timeline of everything that's happened with coven 19 all starting with December 31st it's kinda crazy. December 31st is kind of the first milestone that they have, and that is where dozens of cases are discovered.
[00:02:16] And Wu Han, January 11th, first known death of coven, 19 January 20th first confirmed case in the United States, January 30th, uh,
[00:02:27]
[00:02:27] who, who declares a global health emergency.
[00:02:33]
[00:02:33] Yeah. By February 23rd there's a huge surge of cases in Italy. February 29th first U S death March or March 13th is when president Trump declares a national state of emergency for United States, and then March 15th to 30th is quite a blur.
[00:02:48] Like a lot of different things happens. There's mass lockdowns all around the world. Shutdown of nonessential businesses, school closures, layoffs, and this kind of idea of social distancing really takes off. And today, April 6th, we're still not at the peak. Uh, luckily quarantining is, it's shown to be effective.
[00:03:08]Um, you know, schools have been closed. Uh, and you know, everybody's working remotely and it seems like some regions are kind of like flattening out. So there's some of the quarantine efforts are really working, but a lot of places have not reached their peak and still won't for another one to two months.
[00:03:23] So now I kind of want to shift gears. I'm talking about the education side of things, and so my sister, she's, she's a junior at the university of Michigan. She left to go back to school after spring break ended March, March 7th I believe. And just about a week and a half later, she was back. Uh, back home given that schools had closed.
[00:03:43] And so as you being somebody who works very closely with students, especially college age students, what are you hearing from them? What, what is going on from their point of view.
[00:03:55] Justin-: [00:03:55] So with students, they're really scared. Um, because I've seen, I mean, a few students have reached out to me saying, Hey, Justin, uh, how would you go about the whole covert thing that's going on right now?
[00:04:05] Because I had an internship that was set for the summer, but now they just retracted it and I'm not necessarily doing that internship anymore, or they're really in this. Space of, I don't even know my internship is going to happen, and it's been really crazy to look at it from my perspective because I'm not necessarily a student anymore, but I still feel empathy for them because it's like.
[00:04:24] I couldn't imagine that you worked so hard throughout the year, right? To get that internship at this great company, and then all of a sudden because of things that aren't really in your control, you can't go to that internship anymore. It's just been canceled for no reason. So it's been, it's been wild to hear some of the stories.
[00:04:40] I've heard people that just got their internship cut. I've heard. People that are especially like international students are really effected by this whole thing. Um, I know. So I hopped on a call with someone and she's really struggling to find that internship over the summer because of her international status.
[00:04:54] And it's been really interesting. But what I can say is there is a light in this sort of whole coven 19 thing for students, and if you know how to navigate it the right way, it can actually really benefit your career in the long run.
[00:05:10] Ish-: [00:05:10] Yeah. And I totally see the fear as well. Uh, my, my sister, she's kinda been adjusting to online classes. Right. And so everybody's been kind of scrambling, both kind of industry. Uh, same as with higher ed, same with even teachers in universities. And, uh, it's, it's interesting cause there's a scramble happening and people just don't know what to do.
[00:05:29]  I'm curious, what you've heard , how are teachers adapting to online teaching.
[00:05:33] Justin-: [00:05:33] So I've, I've got some inside sources at some schools. I reached out to them to see how like their universities are doing, and this is no real bias for me, but UCF surprisingly has been pretty good in their transition, but that's mainly because they've had a lot of online courses previously. So they've done like online degrees as well as my sophomore and junior year of college, we have something called like lecture capture.
[00:05:58] So instead of having to go to class every single day. What they would do for the big lecture classes. So just think of like marketing one Oh one or bio one Oh one or anything like that. But they would do is you can go to class, but there's only 300 seats in the class and there's like 1200 students in the class.
[00:06:15] So what they did was they would record the lecture and put it online so you can either watch it live. Or you could watch it, um, later on in day at anytime that you wanted. So that was great for me because I use it to my advantage of like being able to intern and essentially work. Cause then I can just watch it on two times speed.
[00:06:30] Right. And set and turn an hour and a half course. And so just 45 minutes. So it was great for time management, but they had those systems already in place. What I've heard is from institutions that. If you're thinking of like more prestigious schools that don't necessarily have the capacity to try out online homeschool.
[00:06:48] So think of like the private schools, the smaller schools, et cetera, that they're like, Oh my God, now we have to transfer to online teaching is they're really struggling because a lot of their professors are older and they've, they're more on the research side. So they're like, I don't want to learn zoom.
[00:07:02] I don't want to learn all these different. Programs that I have to do, I just want to teach my class. And teaching on zoom versus teaching in person is completely different in terms of the way that you have to engage an audience and interact with them and everything like that. So it's a really depends on each school situation, but for the most part, if the school has had any sort of online.
[00:07:24] Like strategy previously of like online degrees or courses or anything like that. They're probably transitioning a little bit better, at least from the teaching perspective, but if the school is a smaller private school where they're used to just, they preach about like having small class sizes and everything like that, they're probably struggling a little bit and we've already seen some schools closed down because of this.
[00:07:44] So it's been, it's been pretty crazy.
[00:07:46] Ish-: [00:07:46] That's really fascinating to hear, especially kind of the bit about how these , larger kind of class sizes, they're the ones that are really kind of seamlessly going through this because they've actually leveraged technology and they've had an integrated into their program from day one. And it's actually the smaller classes that are struggling.
[00:08:03] That's really fascinating.  so I know, I know zoom is really popular right now, but what other, I guess, tooling our students and teachers relying on right now during this crisis?
[00:08:14] Justin-: [00:08:14] I dunno. I'm really only hearing zoom, to be honest. Um, I haven't heard much about any other platforms. I mean, they're pushing people to like. Do things on the side of like LinkedIn learning or teachable and taking online other online courses, which is weird cause it's like you're already paying for a course.
[00:08:29] Why? Why should you be paying for another course? Um, but if you think about it, at least from the larger university standpoint, what a lot of these schools will do is they don't necessarily even teach in the classes anymore. Like a lot of my homework. That I remember in school was basically online through Pearson or my lab and all of those things.
[00:08:47] So that is still staying the same. That's a, that's why, again, with these smaller universities where they're more focused on. Personalization for lack of better words of like their education and providing worksheets to their students, et cetera. They're struggling with that, with this transportation and transition because they're not used to utilizing a platform like a Pearson or my lab or my stat lab or anything like that.
[00:09:13] Ish-: [00:09:13] Yeah. , totally. So I'm also curious is like, do you think that an online education can be as effective as an offline one? Now it turns out, right now we have no idea when schools are actually going to return to normal. Uh, I read a article by Scott Galloway, a kind of a celebrity marketing professor from NYU Sterns, and he.
[00:09:37] In his article mentions that he personally believes that a lot of schools, uh, hundreds of schools will not actually return in, in the fall. So, you know, right now, we're just looking at this in the short term, but this, imagine this could, could last potentially eight months. Uh, and so a lot of students will have to get used to learning online.
[00:09:54] And so I, I'm curious from your experience and what you've observed in the conversations you've had, do you think, I guess, one, are students adjusting well to this online learning? And  is your hypothesis that it's a good medium and it's an effective medium for  learning.
[00:10:09] Justin-: [00:10:09] I think it's a good medium, but I don't think we've figured out the execution of it. Um, if you've looked at online courses historically, maybe not necessarily just like over the past, like month or two, but historically, a lot of the times retention rates are really bad. Uh, for instance, I know from like full sail university, it's a university in central Florida.
[00:10:29] They're mainly focused on like music and film and, and that type of things. They have a whole bunch of Grammy women winners, et cetera. And they have a lot of online degrees. They've been doing it for a while cause they're very tech driven. But their retention rate is like below 50% or something like that.
[00:10:45] So what ends up happening is, again, it's very different to teach an online class and retain their engagement and their, um, their attention that way versus trying to maintain someone's attention in class. Cause if you're in class, especially again, these smaller classes, it's like, Hey, if you start paying attention, like we're going over this next thing, but if it's all online, you don't necessarily have.
[00:11:06] That connection, right? You can have on zoom, right? You can game the system, just have some loop playing around the whole time and your professor will never know. Or you don't even have a camera and the professor can't necessarily say, Hey Ash, go buy a camera. Cause it's like, Hey, there are no one, you can't even find a camera right now.
[00:11:22] They've been bought up like crazy. But also too, it's like. So you're saying I have to pay more. Right? So it's, it's really this tricky situation where I think it is the future, but I don't think anyone has really mastered the execution of online education just yet.
[00:11:39] Ish-: [00:11:39] Yeah,  that's a really good point. And, uh, I, I kind of want to real quickly hop over to this LinkedIn post that you had recently and I think, uh, you had some really interesting insights that resonated with me. And, uh, I'm going to read that LinkedIn post real quick because I think, um. It might be valuable for the audience in terms of context.
[00:11:56] So in it, you say here is where I think the biggest disruption in higher ed will come from once everything returns to quote unquote normal. It won't be majors, income share agreements, or even recruiting, not at least yet. I believe it will be the professors, especially the non tenured professors, the ones that are innovative will see the power of freelancing and higher ed.
[00:12:19] Think about it. If you're a non tenure professor, on average, you make about $5,400 each month according to ZipRecruiter. Example, you're an economics professor. You want to teach micro and macro to students because  . The traditional higher ed, you were able to teach 150 students a year. Now with the internet, you've made a quarter such that it's automated.
[00:12:36] You set  10 hours a week for office hours to help students that need the help. You spend another 10 hours answering emails. You enroll a hundred students a month in each course, and it takes 40 hours to complete at your own pace. You priced the course at $300 a hundred students, two classes, $300 that's $60,000 a month.
[00:12:55] Before expenses. So it's overall cheaper for students, more pay for teachers. Yeah.
[00:13:01]
[00:13:01] And you're basically, you then kind of point to Khan Academy and show kind of the scale that it's been able to achieve. And so one of the things you're kind of implying is that a lot of professors are going to see a bigger opportunity because of this crisis.
[00:13:14] Can you talk about that a little bit?
[00:13:16] Justin-: [00:13:16] Yeah. I mean, if you just think about it, right? If you're. I think you have to first look at it from the student perspective. Um, the whole thing right now is student debt and how that's such a big problem. And so I think the average, I think, what did I say the average, uh, course credit was, it was like 500, $600.
[00:13:34] Right now, national average is $600 per credit hour. So you have to multiply that by three. So you're paying about $1,800 per course for the most part. So instead of paying $1,800 imagine a professor who was a micro economics professor, he just does his micro economics one Oh one class for $150 you've just cut that price by 95%.
[00:13:58] And you're saving 95% of your regular tuition costs and you're doing it from your home and you don't have to drive to campus, pay for parking or anything like that. So in the long run, it makes sense. And again, it all really comes down to the creative, which a lot of the, which a lot of things in the world really end up coming down to have is to professor good enough.
[00:14:16] Can you keep the students' attention because the cost is extremely low compared to what it would cost to go on onto campus. But the other thing, which I didn't mention in the post, because a, you don't have enough characters in the pose, but also, um, you don't, I didn't bring up the whole topic of, um, what's the word.
[00:14:34]
[00:14:34]Uh, accreditation. So what I mean by accreditation is a lot of universities, at least the ones that you should be going to, they're supposed to be accredited by some list of accreditation agency. And without that accreditation, then your degree is essentially worthless. And that's what's happening with a lot of students because they don't necessarily know to look that up when they're in high school and they're going to these.
[00:14:55] Private for profit universities and their degrees aren't accredited. So when they graduate and go to look for a job, they're like, Oh, wait, your degree actually doesn't mean anything because there's no one to back up what you actually learned. So that's sort of the biggest hump that a lot of these professors have to overcome.
[00:15:11] But I think if. The business professors start to do it, then everything will start to fall from there. Uh, the business professors probably have the most Ackerman when it comes to creating an online course and learning how to market it and getting brands behind it. But for instance, let's just say you're a marketing professional.
[00:15:27] Let's just say Gary V. Right? Creates a course and he, it's the marketing one Oh one course. And what you'll learn is social media marketing, you'll learn, um, traditional marketing, a little bit about everything and creative, et cetera. And a costs you $500 to do it as a student. You go through it. And what Gary's done is he's worked with the brands that he already already works for with a Vayner media.
[00:15:50] So just think of like Pepsi, mr peanut, et cetera, all of these other brands. And he's partnered with them saying, Hey, if someone gets this degree from Gary V. Then you have been accredited by that company essentially. So I think that might be a way that professors can kind of work around that by leveraging some of the relationships that they already have in these industries.
[00:16:11] And I dunno if it becomes a thing, like I said, $60,000 seems a lot better than $5,400 a month. So that, I mean, that's pretty crazy. If the professor starts making 60 grand a month, that'd be insane. But I mean, it's, it's crazy what the possibilities are with it.
[00:16:29] Ish-: [00:16:29] Absolutely. And that really resonates with me with the teachers. I think to a degree they become their own brands. Right. I think it will be kind of two pronged. One, I think like it seems like we're headed in a direction where, um, you know. That the teachers they're very reputable sources in terms of they have an online presence, like Scott Galloway
[00:16:46] he's very reputable online. Um, he has a large LinkedIn following people. People trust him, right? He has a brand. And by being one of his students, he would get his stamp of approval, right? And so I think companies would see that. And that could be the thing that gets your foot in the door. On the other side.
[00:17:02] I also feel like we're seeing companies kind of move more towards being merit based than rather than just, uh. Looking for a stamp of approval. And at least from where I've seen this in my, in my personal experiences, uh, I, when I was an intern at, uh, at Facebook, I was a software engineering intern in 2015 at Facebook.
[00:17:19] And I remember after finishing my internship, uh, my recruiter came and spoke with me and she's like, Hey. Here's a full time offer. And I was like, what do you mean full time offer? I'm, I have another two years of school left. And she's like, yes, yes, you, uh, you know, you can choose to go finish school and then after you finish school, you can come work for us.
[00:17:38] Or you could come work for us starting next week. And that just blew my mind. But the reason that  they said that is because they had seen what I had done through the three months. They had seen that I met the bar, the hiring bar, that they had set for full time employees. They, they knew that I had the capability to succeed at this job.
[00:17:56] And so having a degree at the end of the day did not matter. Right. It was more about like evidence-based kind of decision where it's like, Hey, based on kind of what you've been able to achieve, that's what we care about more than a diploma. Do you feel like companies are headed in this trend? Where, where more than the brand of the university that based on what projects and what achievements you have, that's what's most important.
[00:18:21]Justin-: [00:18:21] Uh, I definitely think it's headed that way. But the problem comes that the students don't know how to navigate those waters, for instance, right? Facebook and all those companies say, Oh, we've taken off the degree off of our requirements. And yes, that might be true, but I guarantee you that the ATS system that your resume goes through, they're looking to see where you're graduating from, what school you have, and what GPA, et cetera.
[00:18:45] So what I mean by. The students don't necessarily know how to navigate it is, I do think that the, the requirement has been dropped, but until you can get some face time with the actual recruiter or the person that is looking to hire for that position, then you need that degree. So the way to work around is how do you actually get in front of that person when you don't necessarily have a degree?
[00:19:06] And that's what they don't teach in school. I actually just had Austin Bell CAC on the declassify college podcast, and we talked exactly about how he's been able to do it. Um. Again, these students do have degrees, but he doesn't go through the traditional ATS, uh, path of just applying. I think according to him, he says, like only 2% of people who apply online get an interview.
[00:19:26] So if you're playing that game, you're just, you're just hitchhiking essentially just hoping for something to happen. But the way to work around it is building, finding a way to create a champion on the inside. And Austin calls this, you create a relationship and then you create a. The VVP of value validation project, and that's essentially what you did with your internship is you validated your value that you provide to Facebook.
[00:19:50] You want to do this with a value added validation project before you even work for a company, and that's how you can get it in. Interview by not necessarily having all of the credentials on your, your resume. So for instance, what's it that would look like is, let's just say, get your grind up as a huge company in the future, right?
[00:20:08] And you're looking to apply for, get your grind up. A VVP might look like, Oh, have your marketing student going through our marketing campaigns that we've run in the past. Looking at our, going through our Facebook and looking and analyzing our page and seeing what ads we've run previously, and seeing the engagement on that and saying, Oh, okay.
[00:20:25] If I were to do this, this is what I would do, X, Y, and Z. And this is why, because I talked to this customer, this student, this other student, et cetera, to come up with this idea. And you might be saying, Justin, that's a lot of work. That's something I don't really want to do. And I'm like, yeah, but if you're going down the route of the person that doesn't necessarily have the credentials upfront of graduating from a Stanford, uh.
[00:20:44]A Harvard, et cetera. You have to find a way to prove that you actually have those skills to pay the bills. So that's the only way to do that is through hard work and finding a way to showcase the skills that you actually have.
[00:20:56] Ish-: [00:20:56] Yeah, , absolutely. And I, I guess I left out . The part that I, at the end of the day, I did go to a top tier university at the university of Michigan. The reason I was even able to get that internship was because , Facebook recruits at the university of Michigan, they don't recruit at every university, and so already I had a leg up on  computer science students who were going to these small liberal arts universities where they don't even get the chance to get FaceTime with these recruiters.
[00:21:19]Uh, and so you, you bring up a really good point. And, uh, one of the things that's been on my mind as well is that I guess as we start to see these kind of like smaller private institutions emerge where it's more, it's more like a trade school than it is like a university. uh, and we've kind of seen a large kind of emergence of these types of online trade schools and the way they've been kind of able to.
[00:21:40] Overcome this hurdle of accreditation is by leveraging the income share agreement, which you actually mentioned in your post. Uh, and it seems like income share agreements, that's, you know, the idea of like commission based services. They've been around for a while, but for the first time, I think right around 2011, 2012, we started seeing the emergence of them in education and the big innovation here.
[00:22:02],so people in industry claim is that it aligns the incentives of institutions and students and it reduces the barrier to entry. Because again, for those who don't know what income share agreements are, essentially they allow students to go through a program and then not pay for any upfront costs.
[00:22:18] Essentially, how they pay back the institution for the education is once they've actually landed a job and it is over some. Threshold decided by the institution, they pay a percentage of their salary back to the institution for a number of years. So for an example of this is Lambda school, I'm not sure if you're familiar of Lambda school, Justin.
[00:22:36] They're, they're the big one. Uh, who led the charge here. And what they do is they do a 17% income share for 24 months. So once you've gone to their program, right, and you've graduated and landed a job in software engineering. For over $50,000 a year in terms of income. You pay back 17% of your income over 24 months.
[00:22:57] And I remember first hearing about this and it blew my mind and I realized like, Oh my God, like this is life changing for people. People are going from the service jobs, waiters, waitresses, uh, working at movie theaters, making minimum wage to making six figures and under a year.  it  seems  game changing.
[00:23:15] one thing I'm curious about is what are your thoughts on income share agreements? Are they the future or is it, is it a very niche kind of financing mechanism that is not going to see mainstream.
[00:23:26] Justin-: [00:23:26] I think in theory it makes a ton of sense, right? Cause why would you pay for something that you don't necessarily know the value of? And if you have the ability to not necessarily pay upfront and only pay if you see value from it, then it makes complete sense. And like you said earlier, it aligned sort of the mission of the university with the mission of the student as well as the mission from the company that's looking to hire these students to now the problem for me is.
[00:23:52] Like you said, we've seen this for since like 2011, 2012 but nothing has really popped off, so to say, in terms of mainstream, right? It's, it started off by having niche, um, companies of just basically focusing on software engineering for the most part. And it's relatively stayed the same. Uh, for that, I haven't really seen much of like a finance, um, Lambda school or a psychology land school or anything like that.
[00:24:16] And it's been interesting to see like, why, why is that the case? I haven't done too much research into why, but like, why hasn't it picked up again? I'm not sure if you have any more insight onto why you think it hasn't been picked up by other industries. It might just not be as profitable.
[00:24:32] Ish-: [00:24:32] Yeah, I, and I actually do have a lot of thoughts about this, and I think you're right.  Lambda school is where it's been most successful. And I think one of the big reasons it's been successful is because there's just such a high demand for software engineering, especially now. Uh, and the pay is just so is so high too
[00:24:47] so you can like double, triple your salary in under a year. So the value proposition is very high. I think it's partly just because the companies that are most equipped to kind of run these kind of, um, income share agreement, educational institutions, they have to be venture backed and all the venture backed companies are in San Francisco right now.
[00:25:07]Uh, that's, that's my hypothesis. I, it's, it's unclear if this is going to change, but I think if there was a time for it to  change, it would be now more than ever, according to the Washington post, 10 million Americans filed for unemployment benefits in the month of March.  and so the, the problem that I see, and this is going to be, I think the.
[00:25:27] The bigger implication of covert 19 more than I think just immediately the economy crashing because of, you know, people not being able to work, but this drastic, drastic rise in unemployment. And you have all these employees who are, you know, in the short term, they're going to get by on unemployment and working for these on demand services.
[00:25:44] But when, you know, things start to go back to normal. These kind of grocery stores and delivery services aren't going to need these employees. And so they're going to have to let them go and they won't be able to return to their previous industries like travel or hospitality, these local businesses. So where are they going to go?
[00:25:59] and so I think if there's a time for these,  risk-free online trade schools to take off, it would be nap.
[00:26:06] Justin-: [00:26:06] I agree, but it's, I think, I think the scale model of. Of the income share agreement. I think that's where you might start running into problems of can you hit other verticals other than software engineering? Like, what is another vertical that really produces high, high, high end salary, um, positions upon graduation.
[00:26:28] There's not many out there. If you really think about it, like just to say general business degree, right? Whether it's finance, marketing, et cetera. Most of those students that are graduating are maybe making $50,000. And if they're making more, it's probably because they're, they've got a consulting gig at a big four company right?
[00:26:47] So it's, is it really economical for the other industries other than just software engineering and like maybe regular engineering and like oil and mechanical or oil and chemical engineering? I don't know. Again, I'm not, have you done research into that?
[00:27:01]Ish-: [00:27:01] Uh, so I haven't, but I, you know, one of the things I'm really thinking about right now is people aren't looking for high paying jobs. They're just looking for jobs and so the, the industries that were, that they were trained to be in those industries may not exist after coven 19 is over.
[00:27:13] And so what they need to do is they need to retrain. And what are they going to do? Are they going to go back to school? I think I've spent two to four years getting another degree. Oh, absolutely not.  want, it's time consuming and there's no guarantee they'd even land a job once it's over. And so that's why I'm thinking like these online trade schools could be a game changer is because one, they're not long.
[00:27:33] they're focused very specifically on one trade.  within six to nine months, you learn all the skills you need to succeed in this industry. Second, they're online. They're accessible from anywhere. so it doesn't matter where you are in the country, you can still be learning from an expert.
[00:27:48] And the last thing is this income share agreement where it's risk free. Right? Now, people are losing their jobs. They cannot afford to kind of pile on 50 to a hundred thousand dollars of debt given that we're headed for a rough recession,  and so if somebody can go through one of these programs, but then six months learn the skills that it takes to  jump industries and land a job. Maybe, maybe not six figures, but like a solid, like 50 K a year job. Right. And then only pay back if they've actually succeeded in landing a job and without any risk of taking on student debt. That seems like a really high value proposition.
[00:28:22] And you know, and. It hasn't right now. It really has stuck to tech, but it could be like this could be the push. We needed to get online educators to go out there and start these trade schools and other industries.
[00:28:35] Justin-: [00:28:35] Yeah. I mean, if, if it's going to work, it's going to work now. Right. This is their chance to really make an impact on higher ed. I'm definitely keeping my eye on it, but for me, I just don't think it's scalable out of other verticals other than like maybe five or 10 and yeah, I mean, if that's your one business, great at worldly works out for you.
[00:28:55] But I think for general, like higher ed. Um, like for a psych major, how many psych majors are graduating making more than $50,000. There's not many out there, and there's not even that many jobs that a psych major could even get to make more than $50,000 a year. So I think that's when that business model starts to run into problems.
[00:29:13] And that's probably why you haven't seen a be picked up by higher ed either, because they don't want to be held liable for all this free education that they be giving out, essentially for that. But I don't know. We'll see. I'm excited to see where it goes in the future.
[00:29:25] Ish-: [00:29:25] Yeah, absolutely, and you've got a really good point, and obviously these trade schools can only work when there's a high demand for the jobs that they're training for.  and so one thing a lot of people are saying is like, it's a disaster. All these, like local businesses are going out of business and what's going to happen.
[00:29:41] And I always feel like there's like, there's this law of conservation when it comes to the economy and jobs where yes, you know, a lot of these kind of like, um, brick and mortar businesses are going, going bankrupt, but those jobs aren't disappearing. They're just going elsewhere. They're going online.
[00:29:57] They're going to e-commerce, they're going to be content creators or online educators or gig economy. They're going to become drivers and delivery workers and so I think that that's the only way, you know, a program like this succeeds, if it specifically is focused on helping training people for jobs of the future, jobs that can, can survive an epidemic like this and can be completely online if they need to be.
[00:30:23] Justin-: [00:30:23] No, I agree. I think, I think there is an Avenue for it to play and I just wonder if it's ever going to encapsulate higher ed. Like everyone says it's going to, I'm not sure if it ever, if it gets there or anytime soon, but it'll be really interesting to see what happens over the next two to three years because of everything that's happened with a Corona virus.
[00:30:43] Ish-: [00:30:43] Yeah, totally. We'll, we'll have to see a one, one last kind of point I wanted to cover, which is not just, I guess the people who are losing their jobs, but what about now these like college seniors who this was supposed to be, you know, their second semester of college. It was supposed to be really fun.
[00:30:57] They were going to look forward to graduation. Now they might not even get the chance to walk the stage, let alone find a job. How do you think, I guess COBIT 19 is going to affect their future.
[00:31:07] Justin-: [00:31:07] Yeah, man. I mean it's, it's actually like, it hurts my heart. Right. Cause it's, it's, they'll never get the chance to walk across the stage, really. I mean, yes, they might do it maybe in the, in the fall or the winter or whatever it is. But it's not the same, right? If you've had to wait six to eight months after you've actually graduated.
[00:31:25] So I feel really bad for those seniors that are in college as well as the seniors that are in high school too. The other thing with it is you can actually use this time to navigate your career really well. And what I mean by that is yes, you maybe. You're the student that didn't have a job offer coming for you, um, after you've graduated, now is your time to shine because everyone doesn't, everyone doesn't have a job coming for them upon graduation.
[00:31:50] So what I mean by that is you don't have a Scarlet letter on you anymore because you don't have a job. You kind of have a Mulligan and you can use that to your advantage by being able to figure out ways to network because everyone is online. Everyone is paying attention to their LinkedIn. Everyone is paying attention to their email way more than they were before because they have nothing better to do.
[00:32:10] And if you're a student and you, you learn the email marketing and you learn how to cold message people, you will be able to get in touch with people that you never would have thought that you would have just because they see a random email of you saying, looking to connect with alumni and they're like.
[00:32:25] Oh, cool. I want to connect with some UCF students because I've got nothing better to do and I want to find a break from doing all this work that I'm doing for, for Disney or whatever it is. And so they'll hop on a 10 or 15 minute call with you and then you can build on that relationship. Maybe it becomes a referral for you when everything starts to shift back to normal.
[00:32:44] But if I'm a student, what I'm doing right now is putting in all the groundwork for when it does shift back to normal and I can get back into the job. Search, so to say, and I'll be top of mind for a lot of people. So that's what I would do if I'm in in a lot of students' shoes. But I mean, the last thing that I wanted, I would talk about for seniors is, this is something that I didn't even think about until I started talking to some people in higher ed, is that most universities are moving more into like a pass or fail system because the students didn't sign up for online courses, so they don't necessarily want to be put on  their GPA or whatever it is. But how does that affect grad school? How does that affect medical school is a past the same thing as an a. So if you're an a student, do you like, do you get dumbed down? Because these people that with CS, they got a pass on their, on their transcript. Like how does that all play out over the next five or 10 years?
[00:33:37] Who gets into medicine. Medical school, who D who doesn't get into medical school because of all of these things that are happening, and we won't know until another 10 years or so to see what the real effects are. But it's going to be really crazy, especially for the gen Z generation that you and I are in of like we've lived through Oh eight Oh nine now we've lived through this.
[00:33:59] Who knows what the heck is going forward, but it's kind of crazy to already see what we've been through in our lifestyle.
[00:34:07] Ish-: [00:34:07] Absolutely. This is a once in a generation event, right. We
[00:34:10] Justin-: [00:34:10] Well that was, that was supposed to be Oh eight Oh nine two so we've already had two once in a generation of events in what, 15 years? So.
[00:34:18] Ish-: [00:34:18] What a time to be alive. it is absolutely insane. And I, you know, I love the weight, the framing you had there, which is, you know,  yes, this is affecting all of us. But seeing this as an opportunity, , I, I'm sure you saw this over social media, but a lot of people are kind of reflecting on the past and the history.
[00:34:34] And one of the, one of my favorite tweets is that sir Isaac Newton, he discovered calculus while he was quarantined. Uh, um, among this was a midst another. Epidemic at the time. And so, you know, the, the end of the, the social media post is like, how are you going to spend your time? Right. And so I guess to summarize for all the listeners, how would you say like, Hey, you know, we could be now quarantine for the next two months minimum.
[00:34:58] What is your advice to students right now who are kind of lost and trying to figuring out what's next? How should they invest their time.
[00:35:06] Justin-: [00:35:06] Yeah. I mean, let's just say you're running Instacart or Uber eats or something like that for like five or six hours a day cause you're trying to make some money to survive and you've got plenty of, you still got plenty of time throughout the day. I'm not asking you to be on LinkedIn for 10 hours every day.
[00:35:21] You literally just take one hour. Go on LinkedIn for an hour every single day. Optimize your profile, make it look nice so that when you're reaching out to these people, they look, they have something nice to see, and they kind of give you that reputation of like, Oh, this student actually takes himself serious or herself serious.
[00:35:37] So create your LinkedIn page, make it look nice. Spend an hour a day on LinkedIn of just messaging new people that are alumni from your schools at companies that you want to work for in the future. Learn about their journey, et cetera. And then from that hour, what you're going to want to do is like spend another 30 minutes sending emails.
[00:35:53] So it's an hour and a half a day. That's one Netflix special. That's all it takes. An hour and a half a day. You do that for two months, for the next two months. I guarantee. I can almost guarantee you that if you do it correctly, you'll probably have a job once this whole thing starts to start to like turn back to normal, essentially, because if you.
[00:36:11] Genuinely spend an hour and a half every single day on just networking. You'll probably meet anywhere between 20 to 30 people every single week, and if you do that every single week for the next eight weeks, your network has just gone from zero to over 200 people and those 200 people, someone is still going to have a job out of that, hopefully, if you've done it correctly, and one of them will be looking to hire a young person, a young, motivated person, and they'll appreciate you reaching out and putting in the work.
[00:36:37] During all this rough time that's going on, so just do that an hour and a half. That's all I'm asking. An hour and
[00:36:42] Ish-: [00:36:42] Yeah. And with, and with compound interest, that 200 quickly becomes 600 1,002 thousand and so the, the opportunities will start pouring your way instead of you hunting them down.  I think that's one of the, one of the most powerful things about, you know, building an audience and building up a network is that over time it kind of flips, it goes from you kind of chasing to you basically having opportunities to just hand it to you.
[00:37:06] But it doesn't happen without making that investment every single day and consistently over a long period of time.
[00:37:13] Justin-: [00:37:13] Dude compound interest. It's something that not a lot of people understand, but I, I'm sure, I'm sure, and I hope people wholly understand it after what they've seen with the Corona virus. Like it's a force to be reckoned with if you'd know how to use it in the right way.
[00:37:27] Ish-: [00:37:27] Yeah,  absolutely. Well, Justin, this was, this was an awesome conversation. Any, uh, last second plugs you want to give to the audience.
[00:37:33] Justin-: [00:37:33] I mean, if you're a student out there looking to learn the cheat codes to college, check out our podcast, declassified college on any podcasting network out there. And if you want, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Just. Do LinkedIn, slash I,N  slash Justin, G, CGU, and that should be my profile. So just check me out there.
[00:37:51] Send me a message at the, send you to me essentially, and I would love to connect and learn a little bit more about what you're doing right now.
[00:37:58] Ish-: [00:37:58] Yeah. Awesome.  this was a really fun conversation. Uh, thank you, Justin, for coming on .
[00:38:02] Justin-: [00:38:02] Thank you.
[00:38:04]That was Justin Nguyen of GetChoGrindUp. If you're interested in learning more about Justin or GetChoGrindUp, feel free to connect with him on LinkedIn or going to getchogrindup.com this is Ish signing off.